For the first time in my long career as an application developer, I
really do hate my job!
I am used to tools like Borland Basic, Turbo C, Clipper and Foxpro to
develop applications in a short time that simply worked and were fast.

I have been attempting to develop a real application in VB.Net using
strongly typed dataSets.
It seems that for every single line of code that I add, I spend 4-8
hours trying to get that piece of code to work.  I know that I am not
alone, because I read the un-answered posts in different usenet
groups.  I currently have a an unanswered technical issue opened with
Microsoft, and its coming up on 3 weeks, and they still don't have an
answer. Sad thing is I have also looked at their latest offering
(Orcas), and it isn't any better. Intellisense is a real joke that
just gets in the way with what your attempting to accomplish.

I have spent over $250 on 5 books that deal with VB/.NET development,
and its real frustrating when the index does not contain any reference
to @@IDENTITY, or DataRow or tableAdapter.  Yeah, I know I am spending
big bucks on the wrong books. Most of these books are published by
Microsoft Press.

We have all been screwed over by Microsoft, and there isn't anything
left out there because Microsoft bought all the great development
systems or put them out of business.  Take VFP.  Great development
environment, easy to understand, and really fast.  Microsoft no longer
supports this environment, and has given it to the Open Source
community.  There will never be anything better from Microsoft,
because all they do is fix minor bugs and the product is still a piece
of crap.  It gets more and more complicated and good luck finding any
documentation that really documents this complicated mumbo jumbo.

Nowthat we have .NET you need to rethink how you retreive this data.
You will have to redesign your query's because it takes 20 minutes to
return 3000 records.  This is from a SQL Server 2005 backend. Its best
to use a dataReader in this case.  Do you see that documented
anywhere?  This is absolutely ridiculous.

I also love the fact that I paid for a MSDN subscription for the year,
but the only product I wanted an update on won't be offered until
sometime in 2008.  

Jeez, I think I'm getting screwed.  There ought to be a group of
people interested in a class action case for this kind of crap.  I
don't recall any disclaimer stating that they might not upgrade this
piece of crap software this year.

I also love the technical help you get these days.  They react
quickly, but then your left trying to communicate with someone named
Babo who you really can't understand your English.  I have asked the
person on the other end of the phone to repeat what he just said
several times and still did not understand what he said.

Its also real scary when I try and open a form and see nothing but all
these warnings about how I need to fix one thing or another.  Mostly
things that I have never heard of.  Close VS2005 and re-open the
project, and everything is fine.  And you call this a development
environment!

Bob,

did you try Strataframe ? it's a data-centric framework for .Net (written 
par VFP developers). IMHO, its the best tool for data access in .net...

-- 
Michel Lvy
Communaut Francophone des Professionnels FoxPro
Pour un dveloppement durable...
http://www.atoutfox.org
--
"Bob"  a crit dans le message de news: 
7dmna3lg8sriuj3fmmgbo2sp0f61g6187i@4ax.com...

> For the first time in my long career as an application developer, I
> really do hate my job!
> I am used to tools like Borland Basic, Turbo C, Clipper and Foxpro to
> develop applications in a short time that simply worked and were fast.
>
> I have been attempting to develop a real application in VB.Net using
> strongly typed dataSets.
> It seems that for every single line of code that I add, I spend 4-8
> hours trying to get that piece of code to work.  I know that I am not
> alone, because I read the un-answered posts in different usenet
> groups.  I currently have a an unanswered technical issue opened with
> Microsoft, and its coming up on 3 weeks, and they still don't have an
> answer. Sad thing is I have also looked at their latest offering
> (Orcas), and it isn't any better. Intellisense is a real joke that
> just gets in the way with what your attempting to accomplish.
>
> I have spent over $250 on 5 books that deal with VB/.NET development,
> and its real frustrating when the index does not contain any reference
> to @@IDENTITY, or DataRow or tableAdapter.  Yeah, I know I am spending
> big bucks on the wrong books. Most of these books are published by
> Microsoft Press.
>
> We have all been screwed over by Microsoft, and there isn't anything
> left out there because Microsoft bought all the great development
> systems or put them out of business.  Take VFP.  Great development
> environment, easy to understand, and really fast.  Microsoft no longer
> supports this environment, and has given it to the Open Source
> community.  There will never be anything better from Microsoft,
> because all they do is fix minor bugs and the product is still a piece
> of crap.  It gets more and more complicated and good luck finding any
> documentation that really documents this complicated mumbo jumbo.
>
> Nowthat we have .NET you need to rethink how you retreive this data.
> You will have to redesign your query's because it takes 20 minutes to
> return 3000 records.  This is from a SQL Server 2005 backend. Its best
> to use a dataReader in this case.  Do you see that documented
> anywhere?  This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> I also love the fact that I paid for a MSDN subscription for the year,
> but the only product I wanted an update on won't be offered until
> sometime in 2008.
>
> Jeez, I think I'm getting screwed.  There ought to be a group of
> people interested in a class action case for this kind of crap.  I
> don't recall any disclaimer stating that they might not upgrade this
> piece of crap software this year.
>
> I also love the technical help you get these days.  They react
> quickly, but then your left trying to communicate with someone named
> Babo who you really can't understand your English.  I have asked the
> person on the other end of the phone to repeat what he just said
> several times and still did not understand what he said.
>
> Its also real scary when I try and open a form and see nothing but all
> these warnings about how I need to fix one thing or another.  Mostly
> things that I have never heard of.  Close VS2005 and re-open the
> project, and everything is fine.  And you call this a development
> environment! 

"Bob"  wrote in message 
news:7dmna3lg8sriuj3fmmgbo2sp0f61g6187i@4ax.com...

> For the first time in my long career as an application developer, I
> really do hate my job!
> I am used to tools like Borland Basic, Turbo C, Clipper and Foxpro to
> develop applications in a short time that simply worked and were fast.
>
> I have been attempting to develop a real application in VB.Net using
> strongly typed dataSets.
> It seems that for every single line of code that I add, I spend 4-8
> hours trying to get that piece of code to work.  I know that I am not
> alone, because I read the un-answered posts in different usenet
> groups.  I currently have a an unanswered technical issue opened with
> Microsoft, and its coming up on 3 weeks, and they still don't have an
> answer. Sad thing is I have also looked at their latest offering
> (Orcas), and it isn't any better. Intellisense is a real joke that
> just gets in the way with what your attempting to accomplish.
>
> I have spent over $250 on 5 books that deal with VB/.NET development,
> and its real frustrating when the index does not contain any reference
> to @@IDENTITY, or DataRow or tableAdapter.  Yeah, I know I am spending
> big bucks on the wrong books. Most of these books are published by
> Microsoft Press.
>
> We have all been screwed over by Microsoft, and there isn't anything
> left out there because Microsoft bought all the great development
> systems or put them out of business.  Take VFP.  Great development
> environment, easy to understand, and really fast.  Microsoft no longer
> supports this environment, and has given it to the Open Source
> community.  There will never be anything better from Microsoft,
> because all they do is fix minor bugs and the product is still a piece
> of crap.  It gets more and more complicated and good luck finding any
> documentation that really documents this complicated mumbo jumbo.
>
> Nowthat we have .NET you need to rethink how you retreive this data.
> You will have to redesign your query's because it takes 20 minutes to
> return 3000 records.  This is from a SQL Server 2005 backend. Its best
> to use a dataReader in this case.  Do you see that documented
> anywhere?  This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> I also love the fact that I paid for a MSDN subscription for the year,
> but the only product I wanted an update on won't be offered until
> sometime in 2008.
>
> Jeez, I think I'm getting screwed.  There ought to be a group of
> people interested in a class action case for this kind of crap.  I
> don't recall any disclaimer stating that they might not upgrade this
> piece of crap software this year.
>
> I also love the technical help you get these days.  They react
> quickly, but then your left trying to communicate with someone named
> Babo who you really can't understand your English.  I have asked the
> person on the other end of the phone to repeat what he just said
> several times and still did not understand what he said.
>
> Its also real scary when I try and open a form and see nothing but all
> these warnings about how I need to fix one thing or another.  Mostly
> things that I have never heard of.  Close VS2005 and re-open the
> project, and everything is fine.  And you call this a development
> environment!


You are not alone.

I came from an IBM environment, where EVERYTHING is documented.

    I've been at this (.net/VB) for over 3 years, and everything I've 
learned was like pulling a tooth. VB examples written in Java script. 
Examples that don't work. Try to lookup another example, and you'll find the 
same non-working code in books, help screens, the "knowledge base", 
everywhere. Samples that don't show what they claim to. Incomplete texts. My 
boss is too cheap to buy MSDN, but from what I read here, buying it doesn't 
necessarily help. I too have 500 page books all over that don't mention 
string builder, or threads, or timer. My boss does, however, believe every 
marketing slogan about "ease of use", Programming in seconds" etc.

Intuitive my ass.


    The folks here in this group, on the other hand, have been great about 
pointing me in the right direction. Without their help, I would not have 
been able to get to the point, where I could even ask intelligently for 
help.

Al  G

Well put! I thought maybe I was alone in this stupidity.  I purchased the 
..NET/VB training from AppDev, and developed my application based on this 
course, and 3 other books.  They seemed to be pushing the 
dataSet/tableAdapter method, which I have used exclusively.  Now I am seeing 
posts that indicate no one should ever use these methods, as they were for 
prototyping/demo only.  You bet, I want to write all the code to instantiate 
and bind all the fields from my application, which number 51 in one table 
alone, instead of using the wizards and such, and dropping on to a form. 
Isn't that what these complicated development systems are supposed to do for 
us?

 wrote in message 
news:7dmna3lg8sriuj3fmmgbo2sp0f61g6187i@4ax.com...

> For the first time in my long career as an application developer, I
> really do hate my job!
> I am used to tools like Borland Basic, Turbo C, Clipper and Foxpro to
> develop applications in a short time that simply worked and were fast.
>
> I have been attempting to develop a real application in VB.Net using
> strongly typed dataSets.
> It seems that for every single line of code that I add, I spend 4-8
> hours trying to get that piece of code to work.  I know that I am not
> alone, because I read the un-answered posts in different usenet
> groups.  I currently have a an unanswered technical issue opened with
> Microsoft, and its coming up on 3 weeks, and they still don't have an
> answer. Sad thing is I have also looked at their latest offering
> (Orcas), and it isn't any better. Intellisense is a real joke that
> just gets in the way with what your attempting to accomplish.
>
> I have spent over $250 on 5 books that deal with VB/.NET development,
> and its real frustrating when the index does not contain any reference
> to @@IDENTITY, or DataRow or tableAdapter.  Yeah, I know I am spending
> big bucks on the wrong books. Most of these books are published by
> Microsoft Press.
>
> We have all been screwed over by Microsoft, and there isn't anything
> left out there because Microsoft bought all the great development
> systems or put them out of business.  Take VFP.  Great development
> environment, easy to understand, and really fast.  Microsoft no longer
> supports this environment, and has given it to the Open Source
> community.  There will never be anything better from Microsoft,
> because all they do is fix minor bugs and the product is still a piece
> of crap.  It gets more and more complicated and good luck finding any
> documentation that really documents this complicated mumbo jumbo.
>
> Nowthat we have .NET you need to rethink how you retreive this data.
> You will have to redesign your query's because it takes 20 minutes to
> return 3000 records.  This is from a SQL Server 2005 backend. Its best
> to use a dataReader in this case.  Do you see that documented
> anywhere?  This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> I also love the fact that I paid for a MSDN subscription for the year,
> but the only product I wanted an update on won't be offered until
> sometime in 2008.
>
> Jeez, I think I'm getting screwed.  There ought to be a group of
> people interested in a class action case for this kind of crap.  I
> don't recall any disclaimer stating that they might not upgrade this
> piece of crap software this year.
>
> I also love the technical help you get these days.  They react
> quickly, but then your left trying to communicate with someone named
> Babo who you really can't understand your English.  I have asked the
> person on the other end of the phone to repeat what he just said
> several times and still did not understand what he said.
>
> Its also real scary when I try and open a form and see nothing but all
> these warnings about how I need to fix one thing or another.  Mostly
> things that I have never heard of.  Close VS2005 and re-open the
> project, and everything is fine.  And you call this a development
> environment!